Like many young boys, Josh Bossin, Sterling College Faculty in Outdoor Education, found a sense of belonging in the outdoors as a child. Unlike others, Josh resisted the many forces that draw adults indoors and keep us there for 90% of our lives, on average and kept his love for the outdoors alive, well, and thriving. Inspired by conservationist Kris Tomkins’s notion that people only protect what they love and only love what they identify with, Josh set up to cultivate a love of the natural world in others. He does that by sticking to fundamentals, reducing barriers to getting outside, eschewing the culture of excess and consumption that often make outdoor adventure seem exclusive, and helping folks safely traverse unfamiliar spaces. This episode is best downloaded and listened to while walking beneath a canopy of new Spring leaves. Move Outdoors with Josh Bossin. 

[03:22]-NOLS-National Outdoor leadership school, began working in Alaska, enjoying other people finding their ah-ha! moment, teaching became his focus and was inspired by Conservationist Kris Tomkins and her the idea that people only protect the things they love, and to love something you first have to inherently identify with it  

[08:36]-Countering “Guide Halo” and encouraging students to ask questions and challenge leadership and how challenge is valuable, we don’t naturally have it anymore, creating opportunities to challenge and grow  in outdoor programing 

[13:02]-reducing barriers to entry, Sterling provides opportunities to use top of the line equipment, and redefining wilderness and backcountry experience, experiential education

[18:57]-asking questions about inclusivity in outdoor recreation, from different segments of the population

[24:37]-acknowledging there is a climate emergency and managing expectations in the outdoor industry, inspired by Kitty Calhoun and the last known ascent of a glacier and inviting conversations

[29:54]-gets hope from seeing Sterling students seeing themselves as a part of that outdoor movement

Transcript

Josh Bossin Transcript

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Welcome to Emergency to Emergence. A podcast produced by Sterling college. I'm Nakasi Fortune and I'm Dakota La Croix. This podcast intends to engage in spirited. Heart-centered dialog about intersecting, eco-social emergencies, featuring the voices and perspectives of people purposefully engaging in ecological thinking and action while fostering active community engaged responses that offer hope.

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Joining us today is Josh Bossin. Josh is faculty in outdoor education at Sterling. His passion for outdoor endeavors has taken him throughout North America, as far as the Southern tip of South America through the regions of Patagonia. Welcome Josh. So nice of you to take a few minutes out of your day to talk about your passion for outdoors.

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Thanks. Yeah, thanks. Great to be here.

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Yeah. Thank you so much, Josh, for being with us. Can you share some of share with us a significant experience that shaped your relationship with your natural surroundings?

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Sure. Um, yeah so I grew up just south of Boston in Sharon, Massachusetts in a pretty classic, uh suburban environment.

And didn't have a ton of, uh wilderness experiences that I, I now kind of know and seek out, but, I was fortunate enough to have a family who is supportive of me going to camp. And that was kind of the big entry point is I got sent away to summer camp in Western Massachusetts and that was the first time I slept outside.

It was the first time I went rock climbing, um and really just kind of like fell in love with the outdoor world. So for me, that was kind of the, the big opportunity and entry point.

[:

From your past, we can see you have a fair amount of training in the outdoors, such as being a NOLs instructor, which stands for national outdoor leadership school.

Can you tell our audience kind of what really made you want to take that leap into this next level of experiential learning and into the outdoors.

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Yeah it's kind of funny now being a, being a professor, it's probably one of the last jobs I thought I'd have, but essentially for me, the point came after high school, when it was time to kind of decide about going to college, not going to college, what to go to college for.

I was basically looking for degree programs that would have me outdoors a lot and would end me with a job where I wasn't sitting behind a desk. Um funny enough, now I do a fair amount of that, but, but for a good, a good portion of my career, I haven't, which has been great. And so that's where I found outdoor education as a major and as an area of study and a profession.

And so I went to, to school at Johnson State College, now NVU Johnson, and did their four year outdoor education degree and as I was kind of finishing up my time there, I decided the next step I wanted to do was a lot of field instructing and so that's where NOLS comes in is, um, they're a very reputable company and many folks and listeners will probably have heard of them or have been on a trip with them before.

But, they offer courses all over the world. Links from a couple of days up to a whole year. So for me, it was an opportunity to do a lot of field instructing in a short amount of time was to go and work for them. And so I ended up taking a instructor course with them in Alaska and then working up in Alaska for, uh, I think four, yeah, four years after that, which yeah, it definitely created a lot of opportunity and, and a chance to just work with a bunch of students. And that was actually at a point when, for me, I realized how much more I liked, uh, watching other people have that aha moment kind of like that camp story from earlier.

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Yeah.

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Um, and so that was, that was big, was a discovery that I was way more into that than I was in whether or not I personally got to the summit of a mountain, so to speak.

Um, And so that's where teaching really started to kind of dwell on me a bit more. Became more of a focus area was that I realized I was way more interested in helping other people have that moment of connection to the natural world than I was in, trying to push my own limits, which you know, is often a thing associated with outdoor programming.

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Can you just briefly follow up a little bit on that aha moment for us, that sounds significant.

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Yeah. So this is kind of my teaching philosophy and what I, what I'm about and what I think the value of outdoor education is, Kris Tompkins is a conservationist, she's amazing, but one of the, one of the quotes that I've always held on to from her is that she said, "people only protect the things they love and to love something you first have to inherently identify with it."

And so to me, this is like so true, right? Any person I've asked tons and tons of people, this question of what's a place that you have a really positive memory or association with outdoors.

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Um, Yeah.

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so the part for where outdoor education meets environmentalist in my world is, um, just there's way more people who don't have a positive association with nature anymore, compared to, you know, many years ago, if ah, technology and cities and all the great things that those provided does limit our interaction with the natural world, and so the part of outdoor education that I work in really gives people the opportunity to have that positive association again. And so, you know, rock climbing is great for a lot of reasons, but it also means that people build a really special moment with a specific region and that's, that's the secret underlying thing I'm working on.

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Oh, that's powerful.

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And you you've done a lot of back country work. What are some of the characteristics that define back country leadership?

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Yeah, I mean, it's, it's different for everyone, but some of the stuff that we kind of commonly associated with it is the ability to have judgment and decision-making in those environments. And so the more time you spend in a wilderness environment, the more opportunities you have to engage with risk, and the more likely you are to, kind of develop a, a better risk assessment toolbox.

So for example, if you go out and get caught in a really bad thunderstorm, you're likely to come away with some learning of like, I noticed that the clouds were rolling in and all the leaves turned up and it got really windy. And so the next time, when you go out, when those things start to happen, you're more likely to be able to assess that risk and know what to do instead.

And so, yeah, I mean, back country leadership is a really wide spectrum, but, but really what we're at a base level is like looking for our leaders to keep our participants safe emotionally and mentally and physically. So that's, that's kind of a big part is, is developing that judgment and decision making skillset.

[:

Josh, it sounds like the word trust comes to mind. Can you speak about that in regards to outdoor education?

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Trust is a really, really fragile thing, right? For all of us and, it's no different, it's actually just a more surface level trust in outdoor programming as your participants or whoever it may be, kind of comes in and expects that you come with a certain skillset and they're going to put more trust in you than you think.

Um it's amazing what people will blindly trust someone they've never met to do if they're wearing the right colored shirt and look professional and are part of an organization and all that. So, um, yeah, there's a lot of trust that's there, but I think it's built on because of an industry that we have where people, uh put a lot of energy into training and making sure that leaders are prepared for the people that they'll be taking out.

So that trust can be maintained. And so it really it's about. Yeah, making sure that you don't lose the trust, not so much gaining it. I think it's what I've seen is it's kind of, they're like, I'll take students rock climbing and I'm shocked that more of them don't ask questions right away that they're just like, okay, I'll just lean off this cliff cuz Josh said that was fine. But for me it's about, it's about, yeah. Maintaining that trust and also making sure that, we avoid a thing called kind of the slang term is a guide Halo. And this is where participants do exactly what I described. They show up and just blindly trust somebody. Even if your gut is saying this doesn't seem right, you don't feel comfortable asking the question because there's that professional there.

They have all the experience. There's no way they could possibly have messed up. So I shouldn't say anything. Um, and that's actually the last thing we want as an outdoor leader. We want our participants to feel comfortable questioning and, and, and yeah, just challenging the system. And so that's a big part of what I spend a lot of time early in a course, that's kinda how I get the two-way trust is I need to know that they're going to ask questions and I don't intentionally make mistakes, but I do make sure that there are opportunities early on for students to, to really like explore that gut reaction. And, and, and have an opportunity where that goes well, so they can say, you know, oh, are you, did you tie that not right or how is that supposed to be? And, rather than reacting in a negative way, I'm like, oh, awesome. Thanks, yes. Let's check that again and showing them that nothing bad comes from that and so that it's kind of reinforced as a good way to go.

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Being in the back country. There's so much, you have to, you have to push yourself beyond your comfort zone. Well, at least for me, you gotta just always keep thinking outside of the box and doing things that challenge you. Why is challenge and important element of an education in ecological thinking? And action.

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Yeah. Uh challenges is valuable for everyone. This goes back to kind of some of that stuff I was talking about with Kris Tompkins and that, um it's another thing we don't naturally have anymore.

Right? Humans. We had a lot of challenge when we were trying to just survive, just physically make it to the next day. And so as modern conveniences have made that kind of challenge disappear from our lives, um, a lot of what we do and out there programming is creating those opportunities for challenge.

And so it's exactly what you're saying Nakasi. It's not so much what the specific challenge is, it's just the opportunity to take on challenge and take on some adversity. So the nice thing is, is it's, it's a really easy, natural, uh, part of what we do without our education. We don't have to work very hard to have that happen.

Um, right. If I say we're going to go rock climbing, that's going to be hard. I don't have to, you know, seek out a way to like kind of in a contrived way, make it more challenging. I can let the experience kind of provide the natural challenge and so I think that's a big part of why trips expeditions, back country travel just kind of works so well.

Right? Like the instructor does provide something, but really the experiences is just as much a co-instructor.

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How have you witnessed Josh, some of these students face the challenge and overcome it?

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There's a, there's a fine line. There's a bunch of different models that we use, but essentially there's a, there's a moment that I think a lot of us can relate to wear something you do all the time is so easy that you don't even think about it. You can just do it. And it kind of just like, like driving a car, right? Sometimes you can just get lost and driving a car and you get to where you were and you don't really remember the drive because it's so easy versus driving in a snowstorm every single moment of it you're present for, it fully engages your body, and you can remember every specific moment of it. And then there becomes this kind of too far moment where, you're driving in that snow storm and you almost crash, the car starts swerving. You may not even remember exactly what happened.

Right? And so what's going on there is, your brain essentially has gone from kind of like in fully engaged to overstimulated. And so for outdoor education, the way that looks is we want to try to keep ourselves in the flow state and that kind of maximum engagement level as much as we possibly can. So that's where the facilitator guide instructor or whatever you want to call it.

That's where they kind of come in is, is their ability to read the group and have an understanding of, are they so below their threshold that they're not even really having to work hard or are they so far over that they're not even going to remember this experience. They're not going to take any positive association away from it and, and our goal is to try to keep them in that flow zone as much as possible.

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We know that you come to the world of outdoor education with, you know, years of academic and recreational experience, what does, or what can inclusivity look like? In this, in this realm.

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So this is a, an area that's like all industries has been one that we've been dealing with more and more, uh, kind of in the, on the face, but the reality is, is that recreation has been something that's supposed to be and has been historically for everyone. Um, we just have gotten away from creating the opportunity and the entry points more recently, in my opinion. And so one of the, one of the things is reducing barriers to entry into outdoor programming.

f Denali, which took place in:

And so that's why it's useful in that class, but it has a convenient. Kind of alternating chapter story, where they look at a historical figure in the mountaineering world, who's a person of color and what their experience was getting into it and why they were able to get into the field and kind of what allowed them to be successful.

So we're having some nice conversations about that, but some of the points that we keep talking about of like, okay, so what is stopping other people from accessing this thing that we all love? And the common things that come up is the financial burden, right so? A lot of this stuff, isn't cheap. Ah, going for a hike, pretty cheap going ice climbing very expensive upfront.

Not only do you need somebody with a ton of experience and training, you also need a lot of equipment. So equipment, in my opinion, that's the easy barrier for entry because we can solve that problem. We have in a number of ways, uh, easy example is Sterling college itself. So we've developed an equipment fleet and a rental center where we can provide all of our students with really high end equipment for basically a dollar or two dollars a day to go and do things and so we've essentially eliminated that major barrier. They can put it on their student account, which means they can work with their financial aid package and pay when they can.

And we were giving them not just like, you know, third grandparent's leftover, broken, whatever. It's new top of the line, same stuff that a person with a ton of money would have access to. So it's really, it's really creating that opportunity is like removing one big barrier. And then some of the other some of the other barriers are, uh, the location, right?

So you've mentioned even in my description, a lot of the places that I like to go in my leisure time are far away and hard to get to. And that's part of the appeal for me. But the reality is, is not, everyone's going to have a chance to do. And so bringing outdoor education and experiential learning to more urban areas is, is such an easy thing to do.

And that's kind of what we're starting to see more of now. And, um, urban outdoor education is something that people maybe have heard of, whereas, you know, five, 10 years ago that wasn't something you would have heard of.

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Josh, what might that look like at a curiosity? Is that more of like a mobile setting? When you say setting up these urban kind of environmental experiences or outdoor education experiences?

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Yeah. And, uh, it's, it's redefining what the word wilderness means and back country, right?

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Yeah.

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Like it doesn't have to be in a place where you can't hear a plane, see a car, have lights, right? That's like what we historically have thought of as like that's the Wilderness and the back country,

And really realizing that like, there are trees and there are bugs and there are plants and there are hills and there are ways to recreate all over the world. Um whether you're in a city, whether you're near a coast, whatever it may be. And so a big part of it is, yeah, just redefining what outdoor education or really experiential education could be.

And it's a bit of what you're saying. Like, yes, you can bring some of, some things to other areas, so you can, you can have mobile setups. but for me, it's that's a nice option, but that's that doesn't solve all problems. Um, it still requires a lot of money, right? To have a trailer with some trained professionals coming around to teach, leave, no trace isn't cheap. For me, it's more like redefining how and where you can do experiential education. So if you realize that you can do it in a classroom, you can do it inside. Right? Those are big changes. You can do it online. That all of a sudden changes the access point. So, you know, ultimately yes, I do still think it's great for people to go outside and try to find whatever feels more remote to them when they can. But, the reality is, is that there's actually plenty of access to it in a much more local scale.

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One of the things that I think is worth mentioning is the relationship between people of color, particularly black people in America and the natural world and that negative association that they have with it. And, you know, I think that the media plays a huge role in how well, the media and history, but right now the media plays a huge role in how we perceive, the natural world. Can you share some of the work that you know of that's being done to kind of correct that perception, if, if that's the best way to phrase that?

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Yeah. well I don't feel qualified to speak on what the media is doing. Right. Like, I agree that with everything you said, and I, and I, I'm hoping that I don't have any control over the media, but I'm hoping that they continue to move in a better direction with the portrayal of yeah, that experience, but what I can speak to is what some, some professionals in what some major parts of the outdoor industry are doing.

So one that I think is really worth mentioning is the national park system, right? So this is the model was that the parks are there. They're owned by us. They're for everyone in the, and they're America's best idea in the Ken Burn's documentary words. Um, and really are they really for everyone? Do we set up an environment that's inviting for everyone?

Is, is the park set up in a way that everyone can enjoy nature the way they enjoy nature? And so once we started asking those questions, there were a lot of things that seemed very minor and kind of obvious. And now when I say them, you're gonna be like, oh yeah, that makes complete sense. So like for example, When you go to a national park and you get a campground and you get a campsite, I mean, at a campground, you're likely going to get a spot for one car, one or two tents and a picnic table that can hold a family of four to six.

Right? So that's like a pretty narrow viewpoint on what is a family or what's somebody coming to, to recreate. And so when, the national parks did some surveys recently and basically found out that like. Well, if you're from a, uh, Latino family, you more likely would go on vacation with like 30 people. Um and it would be an extended family trip.

And so just some of those things that you don't even think about, like a picnic table, big enough for what other people consider a family outing compared to kind of the status quo and norm that has been established. And so there's really simple things like that of just like simple infrastructure is not super inviting right now for people who want to use the parks in a different ways.

So not to. Yeah. So we don't go too far down that rabbit hole. There is so much more, but that's like a fun, little simple version of like, right. We can just change, some of the basic access points at the park physical infrastructure to make it more inclusive.

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Yeah. And, you know, and I think even beyond, um, BIPOC folks, I think making it accessible to people who are differently, abled is a whole other

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Oh, yeah sure.

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Rabbit hole that you can go down into a whole lot of conversation that we can have.

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That's a great point Nakasi, is our, our physical beings and bodies as well, uh, in that relationship to nature. And even when we're defining as nature or outdoors.

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Yeah, absolutely.

This is, this is an area where I think the outdoor industry actually excels and does quite well. A lot of, uh, physical disabilities happen through potential adventure, sports, right?

So people, when you think of, getting paralyzed, it often could be associated with skiing accidents or climbing accidents or a whole, whole bunch of unfortunate high-risk activities accidents. Right? And so there was a population since the beginning of doing any of these activities where people would get hurt and still want to do that activity.

And so there's actually been, blind climbers, you know, everything you can think of on all of these mountains and all of these things for as long as there's been people recording and climbing these things and doing these activity. So there's actually been a lot of advancement long ago in terms of the equipment, to make, adaptive recreation, a possibility this year, we actually brought in adaptive recreation course to Sterling,

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Oh, wow.

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And it was an opportunity for students to learn kind of the introductory, kind of history and, and support skills to go with that and we worked with, um, Smugglers' notch, ski resort. They have a really, really good adaptive ski program. And it's not just looking at things like physical disability, but really one of the bigger takeaways that we've, we're hoping our students come away with is that inclusive programming should be inclusive for everyone.

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Yup.

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So rather than you know, that we actually have a lot of, uh, like specialized programming. So if you have a group of veterans, uh, without limbs and they want to go on a trip that exists, there's lots of great programming. That's doing. But rather what we should be doing is making all of our programs accessible to as wide a range of people as we, as we can safely can.

And so that was kind of what we're hoping the big takeaway was for students in the adaptive rec courses, rather than trying to program for a specific audience, make your programming available to a larger audience. So if you're thinking about. Yeah. The ways you speak and things you do and like even visuals, right?

So if you're what you're teaching about requires, uh, you to, you know, use certain color ropes like that could eliminate somebody who is color blind. And so like, can you do the same programming and make it not about the color of the rope? So there's just like little questions like that, where we can ask ourselves of like, does this need to be an exclusive thing?

Or can we include more people by using different language or using different materials? And often the answer is yes. And it's just, nobody's thought of it like to go that way yet.

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Careful and intentional preparation is really essential for venturing into the back country. You know, in some ways it's a process of getting ready for the known unknowns. What can the exercise of preparing for a back country trip teach us about preparing for living through, you know, the changing climate and linked ecological crisis?

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Yeah. Well, before you had gotten to the end of that sentence, my, I think this will still tie in, but where my brain was going is all about managing expectations. That is a huge thing that we talk about, or that I talk about when I'm, um, teaching courses and taking students and creating new leaders is, is thinking about, creating realistic and accurate expectations for your participants and your people.

And so I think to kind of tie it into what you were just getting at is right, like acknowledging that we have this emergency, and, and facing it head on. And so rather than going ice- climbing and just saying, this is. Um, we talked to, I, I show, you know, it's places I've been to for 10 years or longer in some cases, and can point out like, this is what this normally looks like at this time of year, we normally have this much more ice and now we don't.

And, I have students do some profiles on different, uh, kind of more high-end athletes in the outdoor industry. And, one of them being a Kitty Calhoun and she specifically is one of the things she's known for is a climb where it's the last known ascent. So in climbing, we make a big deal about the first person to climb something, but she,

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Oh, right.

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Was bold enough and smart enough to kind of get the last descent of something and then basically turned it into an opportunity to have that discussion about climate change. Like, Hey, this, this climb is no longer safe and physically doable anymore because the ice is melted and not coming back because it's the glacier, receding glacier. And so.

Um, that's, that's kind of where I go with it as it's, uh, yeah, just being very real and honest and open with our participants about the world they're engaging with and, and what it looks like. And, and that's the nice thing again for outdoor education is as we deal with it on a firsthand basis. So if you love any outdoor activity, you are going to care about the environment because on a, just on a, you know, a selfish level, right?

If you want to keep doing that activity, you need. Natural world to stay in some semblance of balance. And so, um, yeah, I don't know any outdoor recreationalist. Who's not also an environmentalist. They may just not know it.

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Is there, you know, I know in, um within the outdoor, uh, world, there's this saying of perceived risk versus actual risk and I suppose that could be you know trends that could be used across all aspects of life, um, within the context of climate change and, and all of these environmental issues. How do those things fit together?

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Well, one thing to keep in mind, there is a perceived risk feels pretty real to the person who's perceiving it.

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True.

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Um, and so not diminishing that experience, but also trying to ah, At the same time as that also trying to educate people and give them that real risk and what the difference is. And so, um, perceived risk has a value. I mean, there's, there's something to be said for, to use the same example that we've been staying with.

Like rock climbing, there's a high perceived risk in going top rope, rock climbing. The real risk is actually very, very low. Um, driving your car to go climbing is so much more dangerous than going rock climbing. Right. So that the proceed risk with driving isn't super high, the real risk is actually quite high. And similarly climbing, we, we, you know, there's a value there, but it's just acknowledging that you have a fear, and, and still challenging yourself is valuable to people. And so perceived risk has a useful spot because, it allows us to feel challenged, but actually not put ourselves at too much real risk. And so I think when we talk about like the environment and changing climates and, um, all of that, it's, it's real risk. We've passed the perceived part. And so, um, we're kind of in it now and I don't, yeah, it's not as good of a teacher once you're into the real risk, but it's still ever present and it's there and yeah, it's gonna, it's gonna make itself known to people pretty quickly.

[:

You've spoken about some of the challenges. And if you could just speak briefly as to how we're transmuting those into what gives you hope as well.

[:

I think one of the challenges we've been dealing with is being so enthusiastic about getting outdoors, especially in the time of COVID, recreation is at an all time high. Parking lots are full or over full and a lot of cases and with that comes that carrying capacity question,

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Yeah.

[:

Which I think we have to wrestle with as a planet as well, but we're definitely not immune to that. And we've, we've been seeing that growing pains thing kind of happening to us in our industry lately. So that's, that's something that we. You know, are wrestling with, and it's real is, is we've been saying for years how we want to get more people into the outdoors, but then how does that look? And can we sustain that? And I think the answer is yes. There, there are lots of things we can do. Uh, for example, typically 90% of visitors to the national parks go to 10% of that park. So that means that most of the park isn't being used by most people. And so, just, just acknowledging that and that, that can be good, right?

Concentrating impact and high impact areas can be a useful practice to minimize our impact, um, to the rest of it. But, but also acknowledging that there's still plenty of opportunity and spaces for us to go for those that want a more remote experience. So I do think we're, we're working through that growing pain, but that there is, uh, a happier other side to that one.

And to your question about what gives me hope, uh, it's doing what I do. I love working with students and creating that, that aha moment and, realizing that they could see a future for themselves in the outdoor world or part of the environment. And, um, yeah, I get to see that most days. It's pretty darn rewarding.

[:

Well, Josh, I don't think I could've wrapped up this more perfectly. So thank you

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Yeah.

[:

So much again, for taking time out of your day to join us and share about, you know, what's happening in the world of outdoor education and what we can be doing you know to get outside just to touch a more. Um, all things considered, so thank you.

[:

Yeah. Thank you so much, Josh. I know we just hit the tip of the iceberg pun intended there and also thanks for kind of inspiring us to look inward as we're, you know, trying to think about how we can reengage the outdoors. Thank you so much.

[:

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for the time.

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If you enjoyed this conversation, do come back for the commendation. We'll spend a few more minutes with our most recent guests, identifying the specific works that inspire them. So you can root further draw new sources of nourishment and connect to the emergence of vital possibilities.

And before we come to a close Sterling acknowledges that the Land on which we gather, places now known as Vermont and Kentucky are the traditional and unceded territories of several indigenous peoples, the Abenaki in the North and the Shawnee Cherokee, Chickasaw and Osage people to the south. We also learn in, and from a range of landscapes that belong to other indigenous peoples and more than human kin.

As we seek deep reciprocal relationships with nature, we respect and honor the place-based and cultural wisdom of indigenous ancestors and contemporaries. Words of acknowledgement and intention are just a first step. We must match them with acts of respect and repair.

Thanks so much for listening, you can subscribe to Emergency, to Emergence wherever you listen to podcasts. And a very special thanks to Sterling alum, Fern Maddie, for her musical creations. For more information and how Sterling is advancing ecological thinking and action. Visit www.Sterlingcollege.edu

If listening is prompted something new to emerge in you, we invite you to share your thoughts as a written message or voice recording, which you can send to [email protected]

Until next time, this is the Emergency to Emergence.


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